Curse

Lanier · Mar 07, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I think many of us would agree that the motivation line is pretty useless. It is supposed to provide party support through battery, healing, and condition removal support, and the only one of these it does fairly well is condition removal support. What I want to see in the motivation line is for the Paragon to be able to function as a healer, similar to monks or rits. Therefore, here are my suggestions for how the motivation line should be changed:

First, I think Ballad of Restoration, Aria of Restoration, and Chorus of Restoration should be targeted heals.

Ballad of Restoration - 5en, 1sec casting time, 4sec recharge
Target Ally is healed for 20...96...115 health

Chorus of Restoration - 5en, 1sec casting time, 5sec recharge
Target Ally is healed for 15...51...60 health. That ally is healed for 15...51...65 more health if under the effects of an echo.

Aria of Restoration - 5en, 1sec casting time, 4sec recharge
Target Ally is healed for 15...75...90 health and all allies adjacent the target are healed for 8...32...40 health.

Because Paragons have only 2 energy regen and are spending 4 energy to cast their spells (-1 en from leadership), some skills need to be changed in order for Paragons to be able to manage their energy.

Song of Restoration - 10en, 2sec casting time, 10sec recharge (self targeting chant)
For 5...28...34 seconds, all motivation chants that target an ally cost 1 less energy and heal for +50% health.

Song of Purification - 10en, 2sec casting time, 15sec recharge (self targeting chant)
For 5...23...28 seconds, all motivation chants that target an ally cost 1 less energy and remove a condition.

Energizing Finale - 10en, 1sec casting time, 10sec recharge (self targeting echo)
For 5...28...34 seconds, all motivation chants that target an ally cost 1 less energy. If you are under the effects of Song of Restoration or Song of Purification, this echo ends

And finally, some other changes to the motivation line to make it more adept at filling the role of a party healer:

Signet of Synergy - same functionality, reduce recharge to 5 and half the health gain of the using paragon.

Finale of Restoration - 5en, 1sec casting time, 30sec recharge
For 8...19...23 seconds, motivation chants that target an ally heal for 25% more health.

Mending Refrain - 5en, 1sec casting time, 5sec recharge
For 10 seconds, target ally gains 3...8...10 health regeration.

Purifying Finale - 10en, 1sec casting time, 30sec recharge
For 8...19...23 seconds, motivation chants that target an ally remove 1 condition.

So that Paragons can do some party healing as well:

Lyric of Purification - 10en, 1sec casting time, 8sec recharge
All allies in earshot gain 30...75...82 health.

Lastly, so that Paragons have some protting options as well:

Angelic Bond - 5en, 1sec casting time, 5sec recharge
For 5...15...20 seconds, target ally gains +40 armor and half of the remaining damage is redirected to you.

Angelic Protection - 5en, 1sec casting time, 6sec recharge
For 8 seconds, whenever target ally takes more than 60 damage, they are healed for 40...88...100 health. This skill ends after 5 attacks.

Also, for another e-management option when it comes to using targeted echos/skills:

Leader's Zeal - 5en, 1sec casting time, 35sec recharge
For 10...28...32 seconds, whenever you use a non-chant skill on an ally, you gain 2 energy.

So what do you guys think?

EDIT: These numbers for amounts of health healed are just numbers I threw out there, inspired by the numbers from the healing spells of the rit's restoration line. If you consider them to be too powerful, they can be adjusted downward.

Shayne Hawke · Mar 07, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

What I want to see in the motivation line is for the Paragon to be able to function as a healer, similar to monks or rits.

You want a decent healer with base AL of 80?

Olle · Mar 07, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

looks like you wanna make Paragons half monks ?..
/notsigned

Yuna Matsumarui · Mar 07, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

/notsigned, only thing they should do is something along the lines of

'whenever you use an energybased motivation chant you gain 1 adrenaline', to make up for the loss of attack time.

and if that's not good enough then they should reduce the casting of the chants to 1 sec, but that's more than enough.

Lanier · Mar 07, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

maybe i should have specified that these are PvE oriented changes. I dont PvP enough anymore to know how this would affect PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

You want a decent healer with base AL of 80?

yea... why not?

Quote:

looks like you wanna make Paragons half monks ?..

What im trying to do is make paragons good at support. Think about ritualists. They can be very effective healers due to their restoration line. The motivation line is a lot like the restoration line (its geared towards providing healing support) but its a whole lot worse. Im trying to make a paragon's healing capabilities on par with a rit healing capabilities. If you would consider a rit a "half monk" because they can function as healers, than i guess you could consider these changes as making a paragon a "half monk". After all, the motivation line in its current state is more of a 1/10th monk because it contains a bunch of healing and removal skills that are too weak to be of any real use.

Quote:

only thing they should do is something along the lines of

'whenever you use an energybased motivation chant you gain 1 adrenaline', to make up for the loss of attack time.

and if that's not good enough then they should reduce the casting of the chants to 1 sec, but that's more than enough.

Then, whats the point of bringing any of the motivation chants in the first place? The problem is that the concept of support healing just isnt useful when a standard 2 healer backline is sufficient to keep the party alive.

Xsiriss · Mar 07, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Wrong way of going about it. The strength of a paragon coems from PARTY wide buffs that also serve as energy management. Focusing on one target is energy consuming and nowhere near as effective.

Granted motivation needs help,but all it needs is buffs (more healing,some lower energy costs,lower recharges etc.)

Lanier · Mar 07, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Wrong way of going about it. The strength of a paragon coems from PARTY wide buffs that also serve as energy management. Focusing on one target is energy consuming and nowhere near as effective.

Granted motivation needs help,but all it needs is buffs (more healing,some lower energy costs,lower recharges etc.)

The problem is that you cant be a primary healer with just conditional and partywide heals. I mean a monk with just skills like LoD, Heal Party, and the two divine favor party heals just isnt going to cut it as a primary healer. Support healing just isnt useful when all you need is a couple of primary healer/protters to keep the party alive.

Archress Shayleigh · Mar 07, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

1. Ballad of Restoration - 5en, 1sec casting time, 4sec recharge
Target Ally is healed for 20...96...115 health

2. Chorus of Restoration - 5en, 1sec casting time, 5sec recharge
Target Ally is healed for 15...51...60 health. That ally is healed for 15...51...65 more health if under the effects of an echo.

3. Aria of Restoration - 5en, 1sec casting time, 4sec recharge
Target Ally is healed for 15...75...90 health and all allies adjacent the target are healed for 8...32...40 health.

4.a.Because Paragons have only 2 energy regen and are spending 4 energy to cast their spells (-1 en from leadership), some skills need to be changed in order for Paragons to be able to manage their energy.

4.b.Song of Restoration - 10en, 2sec casting time, 10sec recharge (self targeting chant)
For 5...28...34 seconds, all motivation chants that target an ally cost 1 less energy and heal for +50% health.

4.c.Song of Purification - 10en, 2sec casting time, 15sec recharge (self targeting chant)
For 5...23...28 seconds, all motivation chants that target an ally cost 1 less energy and remove a condition.

I numbered your post so I can answer more easily.

1. With the added sum of minuses of energy, it's a 2e heal, 1s cast, 4 sec rech, and super powerful, unconditional heal. Overpowered, don't you think?

2. Immensely inferior to #1. Why? 1 more added recharge second, only ~15 heal points added, AND it's conditional. *Note- It's still an overpowered skill, just inferior to #1*

3. Heal Area + WoH with mid level healing prayers... Forget it. 90 Health AND AoE minor heal for 2e 1s 4s/rech? Yet again, overpowered.

4.a.This addresses ALL sub-sections of answer #4. Too easy on energy. Yet again, overpowered.
4.b.Imagine this + #1 together. As mentioned before even MORE overpowered. (~165 heal spike with practically no recharge or energy cost)
4.c.Yet again, when added up to #4.b there are way too many energy management skills thus making energy not a problem at all, having huge heal spikes cost 2-3 energy, which is just insane. (Plus in addition this is condition removal)

ALL IN ALL:
Yes, the motivation line DOES need buffing. But your suggestion is ridiculously overpowered and totally ignorant of the PvPvE balance. GG.

Desert Rose · Mar 07, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

The problem with motivation skills and more or less any paragon skill is that they don't require thoughtful use; the more you spam them all the better the become.
"Never Surrender!" is good examples how paragons skills should look like: Powerful, but due to its conditional effect it is far weaker if you spam it on recharge than using it in the right moment.

Archress Shayleigh · Mar 07, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Lyric of Purification - 10en, 1sec casting time, 8sec recharge
All allies in earshot gain 30...75...82 health.

Angelic Bond - 5en, 1sec casting time, 5sec recharge
For 5...15...20 seconds, target ally gains +40 armor and half of the remaining damage is redirected to you.

Angelic Protection - 5en, 1sec casting time, 6sec recharge
For 8 seconds, whenever target ally takes more than 60 damage, they are healed for 40...88...100 health (same functionality as spirit bond)

Angelic Protection is so NOT like sb. It doesn't have a number of hits that after them it ends. Don't make them even more overpowered... Party wide major heal? Rofl.

Cuilan · Mar 07, 2010, 10:02 PM // 22:02

More buffs is NOT what is needed. PvE is incredibly easy as it is with whatever class you prefer to play. What is needed is more nerfs to the overpowered skills. That being said, I really dont see paragons as being "weak" in PvE. Maybe they can't kill as fast, give energy, damage increases, or heal as other professions... but so what? Paragons are not intended to be a flexible class. Paragons are meant to SY. If you would prefer play the role of a monk, than choose another profession. Paragons do not need buffs to their healing skills because their SY spamming skills are plenty powerful enough.

mistokibbles · Mar 07, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

The paragon motivation is focused on party defense, not individual healing, which is why they are in their current state very useful. If it's changed to target ally, they're just a bad monk.

Lanier · Mar 07, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archress Shayleigh

I numbered your post so I can answer more easily.

1. With the added sum of minuses of energy, it's a 2e heal, 1s cast, 4 sec rech, and super powerful, unconditional heal. Overpowered, don't you think?

2. Immensely inferior to #1. Why? 1 more added recharge second, only ~15 heal points added, AND it's conditional. *Note- It's still an overpowered skill, just inferior to #1*

3. Heal Area + WoH with mid level healing prayers... Forget it. 90 Health AND AoE minor heal for 2e 1s 4s/rech? Yet again, overpowered.

4.a.This addresses ALL sub-sections of answer #4. Too easy on energy. Yet again, overpowered.
4.b.Imagine this + #1 together. As mentioned before even MORE overpowered. (~165 heal spike with practically no recharge or energy cost)
4.c.Yet again, when added up to #4.b there are way too many energy management skills thus making energy not a problem at all, having huge heal spikes cost 2-3 energy, which is just insane. (Plus in addition this is condition removal)

ALL IN ALL:
Yes, the motivation line DOES need buffing. But your suggestion is ridiculously overpowered and totally ignorant of the PvPvE balance. GG.

The numbers can be changed. I only threw some out there similar to the ones found on ritualist resto skills, but they can be changed. You do have to remember, however, that with 2 pips of energy regeneration, paragons would have to have some way of making their skills cheaper without making it abusable by other professions. In fact, if you notice, the numbers from #1 and #2 were taken strait from MB&S and Wielder's boon, and i figured the fact that they were cheap would be counterbalanced by the fact that other skills would be required to manage the energy and that paragons have only 2 pips of regeneration. But like i said, the numbers can be adjusted.

Quote:

The problem with motivation skills and more or less any paragon skill is that they don't require thoughtful use; the more you spam them all the better the become.
"Never Surrender!" is good examples how paragons skills should look like: Powerful, but due to its conditional effect it is far weaker if you spam it on recharge than using it in the right moment.

So we should keep the paragon class as one that doesnt require any skill? At least target heals require more skill than party heals, and I would think that it is a good thing to try to add a little more skill to a profession that currently requires close to zero.

Quote:

Angelic Protection is so NOT like sb. It doesn't have a number of hits that after them it ends. Don't make them even more overpowered... Party wide major heal? Rofl.

Angelic protection: I meant to add in the number of hits before ending clause, ill edit it in right now.

As for the party wide heal, like i said, the numbers could be adjusted downward.

Quote:

More buffs is NOT what is needed. PvE is incredibly easy as it is with whatever class you prefer to play.

Hmm, isnt that exactly what I said to you when you were suggesting mesmer buffs? Anyway, I figured that buffs would be okay so long as skills were not buffed too high. If these numbers seem too high, then they can be adjusted downward. The only time a buff becomes a bad thing is when it makes a skill more powerful than the balanced level, so I looked primarily at the ritualist's heals when trying to figure out how to balance these suggested skills. If they would make a parahealer more powerful than a rit healer, than the numbers can be adjusted downward.

Quote:

What is needed is more nerfs to the overpowered skills. That being said, I really dont see paragons as being "weak" in PvE. Maybe they can't kill as fast, give energy, damage increases, or heal as other professions... but so what? Paragons are not intended to be a flexible class. Paragons are meant to SY. If you would prefer play the role of a monk, than choose another profession. Paragons do not need buffs to their healing skills because their SY spamming skills are plenty powerful enough.

I agree completely that more nerfs are needed. SY is one of those that needs a nerf. Just because all paragons can currently do is spam SY doesnt mean that is all they are intended to do. Anet added a whole line full of healing skills. Im suggesting they make those healing skills useable (and if they are overpowered, their numbers can be adjusted).

Quote:

The paragon motivation is focused on party defense, not individual healing, which is why they are in their current state very useful. If it's changed to target ally, they're just a bad monk.

Motivation is very useful? Says who? Monks can do ANYTHING a healing-oriented motivationgon can do better. What I am trying to do is give them a viable option at being a primary healer, and in the process, making a currently useless attribute line useful. By your logic, resto rits are just "bad monks" yet they can function just fine as a primary healer. That is what I am trying to make the motivation line do.

Shriketalon · Mar 07, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Better targeting would help more.

One of the big problems with paras is that they are completely dependent on the party makeup. If you have physicals, you need one set of skills, if you have casters, another, and if you have a balanced team, the paragon gets WEAKER, not stronger, because your chants will trigger less.

So improve targeting.

Take every chant, and divide it between "triggered on a skill" and a bonus "if that skill was a _____".

So Lyric of Zeal, currently near useless, becomes "the next time each ally within earshot uses a Skill, that ally gains 1...2 Energy. If that skill was a Signet, they instead gain 1....7....8 Energy." Likewise, minor healing on skill use + major healing if that skill was a spell, etc. This would allow the paragon to use skills liberally, without having to worry about them shrugging off half the party without having an effect.

Cuilan · Mar 07, 2010, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Hmm, isnt that exactly what I said to you when you were suggesting mesmer buffs? Anyway, I figured that buffs would be okay so long as skills were not buffed too high. If these numbers seem too high, then they can be adjusted downward. The only time a buff becomes a bad thing is when it makes a skill more powerful than the balanced level, so I looked primarily at the ritualist's heals when trying to figure out how to balance these suggested skills. If they would make a parahealer more powerful than a rit healer, than the numbers can be adjusted downward.

I agree completely that more nerfs are needed. SY is one of those that needs a nerf. Just because all paragons can currently do is spam SY doesnt mean that is all they are intended to do. Anet added a whole line full of healing skills. Im suggesting they make those healing skills useable (and if they are overpowered, their numbers can be adjusted).

Having one profession do many things well while others are restricted to a strict focus (or build) isn't right. There are dagger paragons, spear paragons, and motigons in addition to SY. Only one of those works well, but with your logic that's fine. What made you change your mind?

Why have paragons useful in human groups when your friends, guildies, or puggies can do the work for you? Why cast or use skills when you can stand there with synergized H/H and then stand there some more because your bar doesn't really do much?

upier · Mar 07, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Lanier · Mar 07, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Having one profession do many things well while others are restricted to a strict focus (or build) isn't right. There are dagger paragons, spear paragons, and motigons in addition to SY. Only one of those works well, but with your logic that's fine. What made you change your mind?

I would agree that having one profession do many things well is not right, but currently, the only thing Paragons can do well is spam SY. Their offense is ok but it isnt that great if you compare it to the casters or to sins or warriors. However, you have to remember that Paragons are like the nightfall version of ritualists. They are hybrid classes, and should therefore not do any one thing incredibly well but should be a "jack of all trades, master of none" class (once again, kind of like ritualists). At this point in time, however, paragons are more of a "jack of 1 or 2 trades, master of none". What im trying to do is give paragons another viable build to run. Currently, there really is no reason to run over half of the motivation skills.

The reason why I changed my mind about buffing skills is because the reason i was against them in the first place is because PvE is so easy as a result of powercreep. However, I came to the realization that power creep has only increased when skills have become overpowered. If all you do is buff the underpowered skills to the level of the balanced skills and not buffing them any more than that, than you are creating more viable builds while at the same time, not making PvE any easier. This is only so long as the newly viable builds arnt any more powerful than the currently balanced skills. This is why some of the healing numbers on the skills may need to be adjusted downward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Why have paragons useful in human groups when your friends, guildies, or puggies can do the work for you? Why cast or use skills when you can stand there with synergized H/H and then stand there some more because your bar doesn't really do much?

I dont quite understand what you are saying here. Sure PvE is easy enough so that you can effectively win with a synergized H/H team, but thats not any reason not to make more builds/attributes viable so long as the attributes arnt buffed to the level of the overpowered skills.

Quote:

Given the power of physicals, this idea is insane.
What you'd end up with is a guy that heals like a monk, but is able to deal damage with his weapon, which is raised by attack skills and stuff like weapon spells, Orders, Barbs, MoP, cracked armour, ... and he comes with massive armour and unlimited energy.

In the current game, we can not allow further buffs to physicals.

Giving paragons the option to heal wouldnt make them any more powerful offensively.

Tenebrae · Mar 07, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Granted motivation needs help,but all it needs is buffs (more healing,some lower energy costs,lower recharges etc.)

Thats it. Shame is that most of the times , most skills need those 3 buffs but bleh .... maybe just 1 of them comes in , who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Given the power of physicals, this idea is insane.
What you'd end up with is a guy that heals like a monk, but is able to deal damage with his weapon, which is raised by attack skills and stuff like weapon spells, Orders, Barbs, MoP, cracked armour, ... and he comes with massive armour and unlimited energy.

In the current game, we can not allow further buffs to physicals.

You never used a Motigon did ya ?. Soz to break your "i hate physicals" bubble but a Motivation Paragon is about 70% using skills , not attacking and buffing motivation is by no means at all , buff physical style. Just happens to be an att line in a physical class.

upier · Mar 07, 2010, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Desert Rose · Mar 08, 2010, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

So we should keep the paragon class as one that doesnt require any skill? At least target heals require more skill than party heals, and I would think that it is a good thing to try to add a little more skill to a profession that currently requires close to zero.

No, I didn't said paragons should require no skill to play, I said the problem with this class is that it don't require any skill to play well. Due to that paragons are either useless or overpowered.
I agree with you that paragons need changes that make them harder to use well, however, I questioning if your suggestions would really change the fact that paragons are eigher useless or overpowered; if motivation is still subpar to monks or rits noone would use them, if motigons have a healing/protection power comparable to monks/rits they would be overpowered because it would be a healer with an armor lever of 96+ and the DPS of a warrior on range.

In order to make paragons balanced they need a complete overhaul, which includes:
- Reducement of base armor level to 60-70
- Reducement of base spear damage
- Reducement of the range of (most) shouts/chants range, e.g. to nearby range (targetable) or in the area (PBAoE)
- No longer allow echos to be maintained forever
- Adding a conditional effect on most skills (like "affects all party members with less than 75% health" or "affects all party members currently attacking")

Then we can think about buffing them again.